Dogs crossing over on outrun in new field and longer distance.

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  • #4563
    mamakin36
    Participant

    Hi there, I have three open dogs: my two boys are 8 and my girl is 3 1/2. This past year I was able to get to two new trials in which the terrain was different than what they are used to, and the length of the outruns were considerably longer than what they typically are at the trials I go to on a regular basis. That said the big field we train in we have done outruns at about 400 yds.,and my friend and I have been able to get to two other fields and have done outruns to about 600 yds. All three of my dogs crossed over on their first runs, despite the fact that I had brought them all out 5 or so runs before theirs to make sure they saw the sheep. All three dogs are typically big outrunners, so I was surprised that they chose to cross over instead of going out to the tree line until they saw them. I think only one of my dogs when I saw it going to cross I was able to stop him, tell him to look back and then redirected and he did and got his sheep. My other two stopped when I asked but kept crossing and finally I just let them go, my female found the sheep but lost them to the setout, my other boy who kept going after he crossed still came in just under the sheep. My question is when you need to redirect your dog on an outrun, should I stop them as I did, ask them to look back like I did and then whistle the flank for a redirect, or is there a better way to teach a redirect. I am watching your video on turnbacks right now, my concern is that how I’m doing my redirects might mess up my training of the turnback for a double lift. Is the turnback pretty much a redirect? Should I have a certain way to do a redirect on the outrun and a certain way to do my turnbacks? I have a younster that is coming along she is 16 months old, I have of course not yet trained any turnbacks on her, but she too needed redirects on her outruns which at the last trial I went too, the outruns were redicously long so I figured she would have a bit of trouble I ran her in pro-novice and nursery. The outruns were 250 for pro novice and over 300 for the nursery. Should I not stop her on the outrun to redirect her, or just go back to a distance she is comfortable with and just extend accordingly. Thank You Margaret

    • This topic was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by mamakin36.
    #4566
    Patricia
    Keymaster

    Hi Margaret, Great questions and we do teach them very differently. The easiest way to explain is… when bending or redirecting, you are changing the trajectory of the path for the outrun for the sheep. This is very different than, looking back for a different/separate group of sheep, and asking for a new outrun….we adjust our training to make the distinction clear to our dogs. The first thing that would be helpful is for us to make a video on redirecting and that is on the list 🙂 Hopefully we’ll get that out this winter. As it relates to your post, what I can say is you’ll want to stop your dog sooner, such that you’ll be asking him to go wider, rather than having him turn back (hope that makes sense) . Please stay tuned for the new video and here’s an example of what I mean by stopping your dog sooner to go wider v turning back. Here I give the bend to Jim at roughly 9:00 on a clock face and he immediately gives a 90 degree bend, going wider on his original path, https://macraeway.com/academy/sheepdog-training/bending-a-dog-outrun/
    .
    I would encourage you not extend your young dog too quickly and also be sure the way you’re developing the outrun is intuitive to her. Have a look at, https://macraeway.com/academy/sheepdog-training/developing-the-outrun/ If she needs to be wider, also have a look at ,https://macraeway.com/cone-exercise-for-widening-the-outrun/

    Hope that helps! Please let me know if I misunderstood your question.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Patricia.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Patricia.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Patricia.
    #4584
    mamakin36
    Participant

    Hi Patricia, yes you understood my question perfectly. Thank you for the reply and feedback. I’ll be looking forward to the video on redirecting. Thanks again Margaret

    #4585
    mamakin36
    Participant

    I just watched the snippet of you bending Jim out on the outrun. I noticed it was on the fly. Also was that your comeby whistle or do you use a specific whistle for a bend out/redirect. My friend and I worked in her big field the other day. We did some outruns in a different part of the field that we have never done. I sent my dog first on a comeby outrun. To the left there is a lot of scrub brush and swampy, a dog couldnt get through it, she tried to go around it but came inside of all that stuff then at about 9:00 it theres a spot where the dog can bend out and they can kick out and go wider. When she hit that point I whistle a redirect comeby whistle and she bent way out on that side and came in nice at the top. I can also do that at my house. I have a smaller area, but when I send my dogs on an outrun towards my house on the comeby side, they go out to the horse fence and when they come to the end of the horse fence they really need to bend to the left and go out around the swimming pool to get out nicely behind the sheep set out beyond the pool. I did that with all three open dogs the other day and when they hit the corner of that fence I whistled my comeby for a redirect and they all did about a 90 degree bend. Are those options or opportunities to help teach them a redirect/or to bend out on the outrun? Thank you Margaret

    #4587
    Patricia
    Keymaster

    Good morning! If I understood correctly, you’re using geography that requires a bend by design and reinforcing with a whistle, in essence trying to teach by association? It’s too difficult to comment on it without seeing it (otherwise it’s my interpretation of your interpretation of what’s happening, too much room for error) but I think it unlikely that association training would transfer to a trial or other setting when you dog is excited, determined or when he’s quite certain of the path he should should take to the sheep. I think you’d have much more success teaching with an intuitive system that demonstrates why it makes sense for your dog to change trajectory.. With regard to whistle, we elongate our flank whistles so while that wasn’t my regular come bye, it’s absolutely a version of it, extending the first note so that Jim knew it was a bend. I hope that helps and again, Teaching Bends is def. on the list of videos to make. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

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